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May: The Month of Mahler/Triple-R Discussion Group
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Triple R. Review Reflect Respond - Sunday Discussion Group
31st May, 2011
9:04am29th May 2011
Facilitator: Clive Smith
We all have a dreamer in us somewhere.
What is your interpretation of "Dreaming"
• it doesn't always mean dreaming while you're asleep
• it can be synonymous with 'fantasising'
• it can also be the beginning of great inspiration and invention
• it can be positive and negative, productive or destructive, beautiful or ugly
What did Mahler mean by the expression "sunbeams of life"?
• light in the darkness
• tenderness and gentleness
• the opposite to darkness
• goodness
How can we keep alive the Human spirit?
• pursuing our dreams and goals
• not giving up, persevering
• never saying never (learning to play the flute in your 50's)
Is there really too much emphasis on the head and less on the heart?
• the group agreed that there must be a balance - too much of one or the other can be misleading
• homework for kids got a good mention - but none of us could see them out in the vegie garden!
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Simon McCall
26th May, 2011
5:12pmThank you John for that clarification of Dr Macnab's intent. -
John Abbate
24th May, 2011
9:41amAn interesting discussion by the sound of it. I just wanted to comment on this part:
"3/ Jean Paul Sartre and Gustav Mahler
How in the Address JPS was born in good circumstances and his life experiences were overall very positive yet his philosophy has been described as one of futility, whilst GM had a very difficult life with lots of tragedy yet transcended this to write 10 Symphonies. There was disagreement that this was the case with respect to JPS. (This may have been my interpretation of this part of the address or criticism of Dr Macnab)"
I understood Dr Macnab to be highlighting the difference between Sartre's ease with greatness and Mahler's struggle to rise above both his humble beginnings and the tragedy that plagued him. I suppose that the comment about futility relates to Sartre's belief in the futility of the search for external guarantees (of meaning and value, e.g. God). The individual must create their own meaning, according to Sartre.
The irony is that Mahler represents the ideal of the existential hero, who, by the force of his will, transcends difficult circumstances to take control of his own destiny, better than Sartre himself, who was born with a loaded deck, so to speak, and destined to greatness from a young age. -
Triple R. Review Reflect Respond - Sunday Discussion Group
23rd May, 2011
12:03pm22/05/11 Sunday Triple R: Review Reflect Respond.
Faciltator - Simon McCall
Points Offered for Discussion from the Address:
1/ Author of Psalm 8:
We were created less than you (Angels) but you are crowned in Glory and Honour. If that had been prevailing theology in the last 2,500-3000 years how things would have been so much different from Humans being full of sinfulness and depravity etc.
There was much agreement on this and how if Children heard similar messages then that would be much more positive.
2/ We Are Born With Seeds of Goodness and Greatness and the Greatness in Small Epics
This bought a response as to how this was similar to Matthew Fox’s concept of Original Blessings, that is we all born with Original Blessings not sin. There was discussion on how the environment or culture you grow up and exist in is very important, whilst we may all have these seeds if we are not given opportunities to realise these or a voice these can lay unactualised. The experience of cooperation, compassion and potential to grow is very important for these seeds to grow.
3/ Jean Paul Sartre and Gustav Mahler
How in the Address JPS was born in good circumstances and his life experiences were overall very positive yet his philosophy has been described as one of futility, whilst GM had a very difficult life with lots of tragedy yet transcended this to write 10 Symphonies. There was disagreement that this was the case with respect to JPS. (This may have been my interpretation of this part of the address or criticism of Dr Macnab)
4/ Cards You Have Been Dealt With, Have You Played All Yours or We Have Potential For Greatness and Goodness How Will You Actualise it.
This sparked discussion around what can we do with the hand we have been dealt some feeling we cannot do much and returning to the question of opportunities. The Serenity Prayer was found to be useful :
God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change and the Courage to change what I can,
And grant me the wisdom to tell the difference
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Triple R. Review Reflect Respond - Sunday Discussion Group
16th May, 2011
1:23pm15/5/11 Sunday Triple R: Review Reflect Respond
Facilitator: Dr Julie Hall
The group discussed the following questions arising from the Morning Address:
1. Hoping to find a precious word early tomorrow - Mahler
Has a ‘good, uplifting word’ been of value to you? What is your experience?
Some felt the absence of a good word; the value of ‘taming the tongue’ was noted – words can cut deeply. We value greatly good words from others.
2. “Two cymbal clashes” – a symbol for life’s turning points.
Can you identify turning points in your life?
Were they like cymbal clashes – or more subtle sounds?
Are they recognised more in hindsight?
Some regretted missed opportunities at life turning points; some appreciated more fully in hindsight their significant turning points; and some identified very distinctive turning points; while for others life was a gradual progression.
3. Mahler’s realisation – his ‘emptiness inside could only be filled by himself’.
Do you agree? How do we deal with inner emptiness?
The group viewed humans as relational beings. Thus, the group drew a distinction between filling emptiness ‘by yourself’ or ‘for yourself’.
Acting for yourself can mean drawing on others for guidance or support, as opposed to struggling alone by yourself. Being ‘for yourself’ was seen as more helpful. Mahler’s consultation with Freud was viewed as acting ‘for himself’.
4. Can our physical ill health be an indication of ‘something missing’?
Is there a link between our physical, mental and psycho-spiritual wellbeing?
The group recognised physical, mental and spiritual health as being interrelated. Group noted that research confirms the impact of mental health on heart health.
5. What mental attitude causes us to feel ‘intensely alive’?
When did you last feel intensely alive? What happened?
Variety of experiences shared – including those of opera, theatre, travel .
6. The five pathways to vitality:
- Engagement with something worthwhile; enriching emotions; uplifting relationship/s; affirming, enriching memories; finding positive pathways out of negativity.
Do these pathways resonate with you? Can you identify any others?
The group recognised these pathways and added the value of a healthy environment
We warmly invite you to post a comment in response to any of these questions to help us to continue the conversation and further our exploration. Thank you!
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Triple R. Review Reflect Respond - Sunday Discussion Group 8/05/11
9th May, 2011
10:32am8/05/2011
Facilitator: Gabriele Buzatu
We reviewed the 5 Worlds; past, physical, mind/mood/emotions, sociality and creative spirit. We noted that the 5 are interconnected and that one may go but the others are still there and perhaps can become more than they were prior to the loss. The idea that perhaps there are more than these five eg. the unconscious could also be included. The way to deal with loss was also reviewed, that is, to work though the loss of a part of the self in the inner and outer world, to develop a new relationship with the self and to aim to reconstruct life and not have an unlived life.
Our reflections were:
• on developing awareness and the insight that each of us has choice in dealing with loss;
• to have strength,resilience and courage to work through it and to continue on with thankfulness.;
• to develop compassion and patience for oneself and others;
• to develop one’s understanding, empathy, insight and wisdom through the different perspective that loss generates,
• that one can have gratitude for what one still has, be open to accepting the generosity of others when one has experienced loss;
• how surrendering to loss helps;
• loss open’s our eyes to see that others must also experience losses just as hard or even more difficult than our own;
• deal with the fear (False Evidence Appearing Real)
• that we can strive for happiness and have a right to it, believe we are deserving, restructure our life after loss and re-engage with life.
• our memories are all the sweeter,
• we have a right to cry, it doesn’t matter to cry,
Our Response was:
Hope, never give up, live meaningfully and exuberantly, deal positively with the change that loss brings,
live the possibility with renewed enthusiasm, and be open to inspiration. Change the things you can, accept the things you cannot and know the difference.
It was a good discussion with good participation.
Gabriele Buzatu
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Yvonne Tully
4th May, 2011
2:18pmWhat a vibrant group to be part of!! There were about 40 of us, being led by Dr Julie Hall, and encouraged, to be part of the feedback relating to Dr Francis Macnab's address: The problem the churches refuse to face. The problem? God is the problem? We talked about our perception of God: in me? in us? out there? or an interconnection between us all? The thing most valued by me, as a member of St Michael's, is that we are given the freedom to search for answers to these difficult questions. Please join us each Sunday, if you can. -
terri dry
4th May, 2011
6:13amThank you so much for the opportunity for feedback.
The Triple-R Discussion Group sounds like a terrific idea. The only reason I didn't attend on Sun1/5 is that I was a little tired...nonetheless I thought Sun1/5's service was one of the best I've ever attended in my life.
Thank you so much to Dr MacNab and the St Michael's team.
I also studied and appreciated the program handed out at the start of the service. I looked up some of the bible references listed and referred to during the service. I found some of them. Since I was sent to Catholic schools, I am a newcomer to studying the bible. As a consequence I probably didn't know where to look in some instances.
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Richard Siegersma
3rd May, 2011
3:15pmFascinating that we can make such a strong connection between music, religion and improving humanity. -
Triple R. Review Reflect Respond - Sunday Discussion Group
2nd May, 2011
11:36am1/5/11 Sunday Triple R: Review Reflect Respond
Facilitator: Dr Julie Hall
The group considered the following themes from the Morning Address:
1. Mahler and his music – a symbol?
Mahler’s music was viewed as challenging; ‘it can be difficult to listen to’. The music expresses a wide range of emotions; can be exciting and unexpected. There is a sense of human questing amidst the clamour; it is at times discordant, reflecting humanity and the human scene.
2. Old time religion; concept of the 3-tier universe. Impact on us today?
Religion viewed as evolving across time, and from one generation to the next. In some ways we have entered a new era – but traditional views and practices persist, as evident in the Royal Wedding prayers. Some continue to feel the impact of early fundamentalist teaching, old Christian fears can re-surface.
Discussion ensued about the effect of referring to the Bible as ‘the book’. For some, this positioned the Bible as a book of stories alongside other books written by human beings. For others, this description ‘took the sacred out of it’. Some recalled that the Bible has been referred to as ‘The Good Book’ – capital ‘B’ signifying its sacred significance. It remains a worldwide best seller and has multiple versions.
The group noted that the Bible contains various different images of God – wrathful, vengeful, jealous, patient, merciful and compassionate. It was observed that Bible stories are sparse leaving room for subjective interpretation.
3. Search for inspiration; ‘God beyond God’; Spirit of Life.
Concepts of God were discussed. Some noted that our God concept is limited by our understanding of being human; that God is a concept created by humans and given human attributes. For some, God can be conceptualised as our connection to the universe and one another; as all that is. Some view all as being part of a universal whole; others see themselves as created in the image of God and interconnected. It was evident that among all the searchers of the group there was a diversity of ideas and differing paths - and a desire to continue the exploration.
4. Prayer –what is it?
There were various concepts of prayer:
• Focussed attention; holding space to get in touch with one’s better self
• Time out to dwell within; to think things through, talk to self
• Valued ritual to express concern for others and gratitude
• Meditation as a form of prayer
• Congregational prayer – shared aspiration for the good; like a choir
5. Energy of faith for a new era?
Faith understood as energy for the greater good; faith lifts and takes us forward into the new era. We have faith that there is something better to strive towards.
Watch the address