St Michael's Uniting Church in Australia - Have Your Say

Have Your Say

New Faith throws out the Ten Commandments

• David Volk
  23rd September, 2008
  9:52am

  Is it posble to have the full text/context of what Dr. McNab presented in the"Age" the last week?
  As a supporter of Progressive Christianity and a retired UCA minister, I am appalled/amused at the UCA's retreat into its typical mono-theology/trench warfare in its response....but response to exactly what?
  Thank you,
  David Volk

• Liz Green
  22nd September, 2008
  11:49pm

  Robert - Many thanks for your expansive and insightful response to the simplicity of my statement. I have read with interest the many comments that have been made including yourself and others and have been a part of a number of discussions during the past week with a variety of people and I wonder why it all has to be so complex. Jesus made statements that were very wise but very simpleCan't we just simply believe that there is a spiritual part of our being which is a "presence" within us and that we are free to individually explore no matter what name tag we have attached to it. I know so many people who have hardly ever been inside a church or whatever and they are the most spiritual people that I am fortunate enough to know. Mainly because there are no prescriptions, labels or rules attached to who they really are. Why do we have to .stick our sprituality our beliefs into little tiny boxes with labels on them. Thats not how I see it or want to be.That doesn't make me feel free.\r\n Men over many centuries have dominated the debate on how we should and should not explore our spirituality by producing documents "inspired" by a "god" for a variety of religions one of which is Christianity.Luke set the standard in the New Testament regarding the status of women in the church by not giving them a voice, despite the fact that Jesus acknowledged Mary as a disciple. It\'s taken just under 2000 years for women to be acknowleged as disciples and given equal status in the church heirachy Jesus intended .We now have female, ministers, priests and bishops.Wow, why did it take so long!! Has this major change taken place because of the reinterpretation of the scriptures or could it be there is a declining number of men wanting to be in these positions?!! \r\nEither way we need to listen to our 21st Century scholars ( because this is our time not tomorrow's) Spong, Holloway, Funk, Macnab etc.who draw large numbers to hear what they have to say.\r\nOne must seriously ask the question why?From where I sit ,a more authentic up to date approach to Christianity could provide a medium for those who are searching for a 21 century expression of their spirtuality. This could be seen as a major attempt to stop the decline of people in the pews on a Sunday and the closure of so many of our churches.No matter what - people will find their own mediums and beliefs for exploring their spirituality in a variety of different ways .. I consider myself fortunate that an important part of the extensiveness of my exploration is at St.Michaels.

• Kyle
  22nd September, 2008
  10:32pm

  Has this bloke got some sort of problem?
  
  Personally, I don't see anything wrong with:
  "Thou shalt not murder" or any of the other commandments.
  
  The fact that Moses murdered an Egyptian is irrelevant to this discussion. It merely shows us that God is willing to forgive and use sinners whom He has forgiven to accomplish His purposes.

• Petrov
  22nd September, 2008
  10:28pm

  He who stands for nothing...

• Gregory
  22nd September, 2008
  10:27pm

  This guy reminds me of those contempory artists who paint something crap and then say "find your own meaning out of it."
  
  What a load of nonsense. This bloke has lost his marbles!

• Kieran Sinnott
  22nd September, 2008
  7:09am

  Congratulations St Michael's church and Dr Francis McNab! Can't wait to attend a service when I'm back in Melbourne after 8 years as a lapsed Catholic.

• Robert
  21st September, 2008
  11:28pm

  Liz - the beauty of this form of open-minded religion is that you don't *have* to agree with everything that Dr Macnab says.
  
  What he and others like him say is placed there for us to think about, and gain strength from, to live lives that bring blessing to ourselves, those around us, and the world as a whole.
  
  It's quite different to how religion used to be - where you had to publicly agree with what was said, otherwise you would be either socially ostracised, or even driven out, called a heretic, or worse. Some churches still do these practises today.
  
  I'm enthused by what I have read on this site, and I'm hoping to make it along to a service in the very near future.
  
  My idea of God is a complex one - as I believe God has monotheist, pantheist, and even polytheist aspects. I am not a Christian. But I believe *passionately* in the values that Jesus taught and practised - mercy, tolerance, compassion, self-sacrifice - I feel that the existence and the possibility of practising those ideals is what gives us a chance to rise above the basest elements of our animal nature. I don't boast of living up to those ideals myself - not even close - but on my better days, I try.
  
  And to my mind, the exact understanding of who or what God is, is not in one iota relevant to what we are as humans. God does not directly and concretely reveal the full nature of him (or her? :) ) self to us. Men claim he directly inspired a book called the Bible. Men claim he directly inspired a book called the Koran. Men claim he directly inspired the Book of Mormon. The common thread here, one that nobody can deny, all these claims are made by men. Most of us have, at one level, accepted these claims - but who of us has truly, beyond all doubt, confirmed the truth of real, infallible, divine inspiration? I suspect some will claim to have had visions or been divinely inspired themselves to the point that they feel it has been confirmed. Forgive me for being speptical. I do not doubt your passion or your desire to believe it with no doubt, but I doubt that your claim can be substantiated.
  
  By that we can therefore say that, no matter what our parents have told us, the validity of all traditional religions must be brought under question. We can choose to believe one of them to the exclusion of others - and I believe many (if not most) people in the world do, although they vary in how committed they are to their faith. But the problem I have with that is that there is no compelling rational reason to believe one faith is true, to the exclusion of others - except for what amounts to blind belief.
  
  Do I think God - whoever he, she, or it is - cares about what we understand of God's nature? I don't see how its even possible. We can feel the divine in a vague and undefined, yet powerful sense, in our own perceptions of the world, and our minds. Yet that sense of the divine occurs in a unique, different and mysterious way to each one of us. That to me is a more telling sign than anything about religion I have ever been told, by anybody.
  
  So absolute belief is in my view irrational - but still what is wrong with absolute belief in one faith and doctrine? Just this one thing. It means that when you meet a person who is of a different religious tradition - whether as close to you as a Catholic to a Protestant, or as different as a neo-pagan and a Muslim - you end up disagreeing over the exact rules, the exact details - in extreme situations to the point of war and violence - instead of celebrating each other's individual and different sense of the divine and encouraging and supporting one another in our own journeys to be better people in every sense of the word.
  
  Where then does the true desire to live a better life come from? From a self-identification with a particular religion? I think Dr. Macnab said it best when he mentioned Moses being a genocidal maniac (Apologies for possibly taking it out of context, but I think I understand what was being meant). Moses was a celebrated figure of power and influence in ancient Israel's history - similar to various warlords in our own Western past. Was Moses a spiritual man the way Jesus was? I doubt it highly - he was about as spiritual as those who, in my belief, lied to the American people to lead them in a war against Iraq (I apologise for including what is a controversial political opinion I hold). What I mean though is that it's one thing to claim a connection with God and the participation in miracles to increase your own influence and credibility among superstitious followers. Its quite another to actually try to live out in your own life with the ideals that were taught by Jesus Christ.
  
  Without wanting to go out on a tangent, I believe that these ideals can be derived through reason. I am no student of philosophy, but I have read enough to know that the golden rule was expounded upon by people such as Kant, and I believe it is the work of philosophers in the Enlightenment that we should give credit to for our current enjoyment of freedom in society, rather than the 'Judeo-Christian' roots that you hear referred to by certain politicians.
  
  That's all I feel like writing. I've probably made some mistakes with how I chose words because it was a stream of consciousness kind of thing. I know I can't open anyone's mind who is absolutely convinced in the infallible truth of the Bible. In fact, you probably think I'm crazy or perhaps even evil or demon possessed. It is your right to believe that, and refuse the possibility of anything else, if you choose to do so.
  I would just ask you all to consider this one quote:
  "You show me why all the other gods are wrong, and I'll show you why yours is wrong."

• wendy
  21st September, 2008
  9:19pm

  This afternoon I attended the Opening Worship of the Synod (Victoria and Tasmania) at St Michaels. It was a beautiful occasion, blessed by music, prayer, preaching and the grace of sharing with Aboriginal people, migrants, and hundreds of people from many cities and towns.
  However, a faux pas was so apt. 'Welcome to St Francis church' Oops, St Michael's! Hey, is Dr Macnab a saint now, I wondered. We laughed though. The worship was an affirmation of our participation in a long history of the Christian faith and its relevance today. Not New Age but a continuation of a great tradition. Of course that does not mean being 'fundamentalist' in the narrow sense, but it does mean for us in the Uniting Church, subscribing to the Basis of Union.
  By the way, what a super organ and the Verdi March of the Hebrew Slaves was very powerful.

• Liz Green
  21st September, 2008
  8:21am

  Its a real chore to get up on a Sunday morning drive into the city, park the car and get to St.Michaels by 10am
  Why do I and 400 other people go - well personally I get to enjoy a service and an address like no other in town.
  I have been doing this for 20+ years and I have to say that there is something there each Sunday that is inspiring and that I can take away and think about how I can relate this to my own life and experience- How I can grow intellectually and spiritually
  I certainly don't agree with everything that Francis Macnab has to say but what he does have to say is in a language for the 21st century and I am given the freedom to be and become who I am. There are no punitive Thou shalt not's but a religion that is open to new ideas thoughts and exploration.
  It is a religion for this complex world that we live in.
  Blaise Pascal spelled it out in the 17th century.
  
  " iI one subjects everything to reason our religion will lose its mysteryand its supernatural characters. If one offends the principles of reason our religion will be absurd and rediculous... there are two equally dangerous extremes, to shut reson out and so let nothing in.

• Jason Hockley
  20th September, 2008
  3:06pm

  DR.Francis Mc Nab is lying straight to the church,and the people in his own congregation.He is listening to that devil and dragging people to HELL with him.The BIBLE,GODS WORD IS ALL TRUTH !!ANYONE who trys to argue the WORD OF GOD is listening to the lies of the devil.That is truth.Francis Mc Nab needs to be shown the door out of that church he is not preaching the TRUTH,THE WORD OF GOD!!ST.MICHAELS ,SAY THEY ARE A CHRISTIAN CHURCH AND PREACH THE BIBLE,START DOING SO !!!!PREACH JESUS TO THE WORLD AND STAND UP FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!DONT SPEAK AGAINST GODS WORD ,that will send people to HELL!!!DR.FRANCIS ,THERE BLOOD is on your hands ,they need to listen to the TRUTH not lies!!!The BIBLE says we can judge a christian by there FRUITS,cmon DR.MC Nab,!!!!AND the UNITING church I pray THEY stand UP for JESUS and SHOW the DOOR to FRANCIS MCNAB,sack him!!!The devil is a maggot and feeding FRANCIS lies,UNLESS he repents dont listen to McNAB ,FOLLOW JESUS!!!!THE WORD!!!!THE BIBLE!!!!!MAKE A STAND!!!!!AND FRANCIS IM PRAYING that you REPENT and turn to JESUS!!!!!
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