St Michael's Uniting Church in Australia - Have Your Say

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Have Your Say

New Faith throws out the Ten Commandments

• Ken/Margaret
  19th September, 2008
  11:40am

  Francis, in The Age we read about the NEW FAITH !
  
  It reminded us of the Medicare jingle "I feel better now!"
  
  Thank you for your refreshing thoughts.
  
  Looking forward to your Sunday morning service.

• Sandy Parker
  19th September, 2008
  10:11am

  Our thoughts are with you - Barney Zwartz has wielded his oversize wooden spoon yet again!
  Reading between the lines, none of what you say would be out of place at this weekend's "Sea of Faith" conference in Melbourne, or in the thoughts of the majority of those who consider themselves part of the wider Christian tradition.
  I offer a brief quotation from a contemporary Buddhist source:
  The difference between theism and nontheism is not whether one does or does not believe in God.[...] Theism is a deep-seated conviction that there's some hand to hold [...] Non-theism is relaxing with the ambiguity and uncertainty of the present moment without reaching for anything to protect ourselves [...] Nontheism is finally realizing there is no babysitter you can count on.".^ Chodron, Pema (2002). When Things Fall Apart. Shambhala Publications,
  The revolutionary message of the Jesus movement has much to offer the contemporary world. My thanks to Francis Macnab for seeking to recover that message, and separate it from its institutionalised trappings. You are in good company - William Penn (17th century Quaker) saw the emerging Quaker movement as "primitive Christianity re-discovered.
  All good wishes

• CJM
  18th September, 2008
  11:38pm

  To all those who say that Dr McNab is entitled to preach a new, fresh, liberal etc interpretation the nature and importance of Jesus and the Bible, I wholeheartedly agree.
  
  However, I refer you to the statements of the position and beliefs of the Uniting Church, of which St Michael's and Dr McNab are part. They are on the UCA Synod website.
  
  I cannot see that what appeared in the article is consistent with these beliefs.
  
  No-one is obliged to be a Christian. But to be a Christian is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God - the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, that he rose from the dead, and a variety of other things articulated in the Creeds subscribed to be Christians of all denominations over centuries. They are not really negotiable.
  
  And massive scholarship has gone on over centuries by extremely varied people in various countries to try to understand the meaning and ramifications of the Christian faith and the historical Jesus - far from the sort of closed-minded dogma that some correspondents seem to be envisaging.
  
  

• Gruhen
  18th September, 2008
  11:34pm

  John Abbate writes: "all he [Macnab] has in fact done is call the usefulness to our lives of an ancient document into question"
  
  Could you please clarify which of the ten commandments should be brought into question?
  
  1. Don't have any other god's
  - Seems fine given that it is in the context of God's church and promotes God's divinity.
  
  2. Don't worship idols
  - Seems fine as it warns of placing material possessions above God.
  
  3. Don't misuse the Lord's name
  - Seems fine as it promotes the sanctity of God.
  
  4. Keep the Sabbath holy
  - Seems fine as it reminds us to revere and respect God.
  
  5. Honour your parents
  - Seems fine as parents often put the interests of their children above their own.
  
  6. Do not murder
  - Seems fine if you accept that life is a precious gift of God.
  
  7. Do not commit adultery
  - Seems fine as it encourages the union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.
  
  8. Do not steal
  - Seems fine as it promotes respect for the possessions of other people!
  
  9. Do not lie
  - Seems fine as lying usually leads to deceptive gain.
  
  10. Do not covet
  - Seems fine as it rejects jealously - the root of a lot of evil - over other people's belongings.
  
  The fact that the Ten Commandments are ancient does not in anyway detract from their value in our relationships with God (commandments 1 - 4) and our relationships with others (commandments 5 - 10).
  
  I cannot think of anything more "useful" to live by to be honest, especially given the commandments were confirmed and "fufilled" by Jesus in the New Testament!

• Dennis
  18th September, 2008
  10:58pm

  John Abbate on 18th September, 2008 2:48pm
  
  PLEASE DO NOT MISQUOTE ME!!!
  
  I did not say that Macnab is a "deceitful liar" as you claim - read my comment again!
  
  John you must draw the distinction, evident in my comments earlier, between critisising a person's behaviour (as I have done) and critising the person (which I have not done). If I was to critisise the person, that would constitute being a "stone-throwing Christian" you described earlier, but clearly I have not done anything of the sort.
  
  I must also correct you John when you say that "Revelation is easily the strangest book in them [the Gospels]". Revelation is not one of the Gospels. The Gospels are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - the first 4 books of the New Testament - not the book of Revelation. I must agree with you that Revelation does require a certain level of understanding to interpret exactly what God holds for the future and I must admit that I don't claim to have it all figured out yet.
  
  And I enjoyed your subtle reference to the theories described in The DaVinci Code in your first sentence :). Keep in mind that the vast majority of Christians believe the Bible was written by man under the inspiration of God. EG. Moses, Paul, Peter, John...
  
  I look forward to our continuing discussion on this blog John. It seems we have both found a topic with which we are equally passionate about.
  
  God Bless.

• John Abbate
  18th September, 2008
  2:48pm

  In response to Dennis, from 17th September, 2008
  9:50pm
  
  Presumably the 3rd and 4th century Christians who gathered the canonical writings together to form the New Testament, along with a reworked version of the Septuagint called the Old Testament, are now enjoying God's "retribution" for modifying his word. While I respect your beliefs, the intolerance, hostility and arrogance they seem to mandate is nothing short of uncivil, as is evidenced by the name-calling on this forum. Thus Dr Macnab is a "deceitful liar" who should be pitied. How strange this sounds to me, when all he has in fact done is call the usefulness to our lives of an ancient document into question.
  
  I have read the Gospels, and Revelation is easily the strangest book in them.

• Gina
  18th September, 2008
  2:44pm

  I found Dr MacNab's comments, as reported in The Age, to be a breath of fresh air. He articulated what I have been thinking about and moving towards for many years. Similar thoughts have been put forward by Bishop Shelby Spong, who still calls himself Christian and sees Jesus as his gateway - but not the only gateway - to approaching the experience of God. The God that created the ever-expanding universe and the incredible natural world - and the remarkable human brain which continues to search for truth wherever it is to be found - cannot be bound within manuscripts written nearly 2,000 years go. We are asked to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength - and that requires that we think honestly and bravely about everything, including the traditional teachings of the church, in the light of all knowledge as it comes to hand.
  

• Ray
  18th September, 2008
  11:05am

  Alfred asks: "Was Jesus not a carpenter? Was he not born in a stable? in a manger? ...to unmarried parents? Actually, Alfred, we don't know, but it is highly unlikely. Even the Bible doesn't say that Jesus was a carpenter (Joseph was, we are told) and the epiphany story (not consistently told by the gospel writers) is generally agreed to be a symbolic creation.The collection of responses to Macnab on this page seem to assume that the only "Christianity" is that interpreted by Paul and recorded in the writings that the Pauline church accepted. Yes, people who see another way to describe their relationship with the ineffable through considering the Christian writings are out of step with those who accept the stories as literal and full truth. Churches that grew from the Roman church can rightly object that such people do not belong among them - it's their game and they define the rules. But is their "churchianity" the only expression of "Christianity" Macnab is only pointing out that the rest of us have diffent insights into the same mysteries. Cut him some slack and don't get so protective of your version of "truth". Truth can speak for itself and doesn't need dogma, as Quakers, for example, have known for several hundred years. By the way, I'm not so sure about Jesus being a peasant. The little we are told about his life suggests that he was far from poor and he mixed with reasonably comfortable people. And he had an uncle who was an international trader and importer...

• wendy
  18th September, 2008
  9:56am

  Start another New Age cult if you like Dr Macnab but do not call it Christian. Many years ago I was enlightened by the preaching of Dr Henshall and another minister in the late 50s at that church on the corner of Russell/Collins Street. Now it's a place for pitiful blathering. And what timing! The media will love it, with the Uniting Church opening worship at St Michael's next Sunday! Extraordinary.
  Stick with psych. Dr Macnab not the Uniting Church.

• Alfred
  17th September, 2008
  11:39pm

  Was Jesus not a carpenter? Was he not born in a stable? in a manger? i.e. a feed trough for a Donkey? to unmarried parents? To call Jesus a peasant is not an insult, but a perfectly reasonable statement. Jesus' humanity and humbleness is all part of the point of the scriptures!
  
  Dr. Macnab has not said in his recent media statements that he devalues Jesus' teachings, at least, those that though scholarly and thorough historical research (in Dr. Macnab's case with his collegues of at the Jesus Seminar) have shown that we can be certain that he did make. And what of those teachings that historical research tells us he didn't make? are we to blindy follow false teachings?
  
  For those who truly wish to serve Jesus or to follow his teaching, the HONEST and LOGICAL path would be to find out as much about him has History will yeild and to discard the teachings we know to be false.
  
  Are we really to keep taking things like the ascension of Christ literally, if he did rise up into the heavens - he would have gone into orbit. We know the earth is not flat, we know about the stars and the sun and space.
  
  And just what is the outcome of Clergy continuing to preach nonsense like this? The answer can already be found in most dismally empty churches - the nonsense detracts from the credibility of the real teachings of Jesus, and prevents the vast majority of society from taking any of it seriously.
  
  To those adherents to the Ten Commandments who most likely have recently been rescued from slavery in Egypt along with the entire human race presumably, I would point to the ninth commandment: "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" and encourage them to rationally and calmly look again at what Macnab has said.
  
  Luke 6:37, "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned"
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